from
Elizabeth:
well Xenophon's certainly about the high drama, but
not probably historically accurate.
Excerpts from Theramenes' defense speech:
" . . . would the man who openly gives this advice appropriately
be considered a loyalist or a traitor? Those who prevent making more
adversaries, who show instead ways to obtain the most supporters,
these do not make one's enemies stronger, Critias, but rather those
who unjustly take away money and who kill those who do no wrong,
these are the ones who make the opposition more numerous and who
betray not only their friends but also themselves for the sake of
the sordid love of gain (aischrocherdeia). 2.3.43
En route to being served hemlock: When dragged through the agora,
Theramenes was yelling what was happening to him, and one of his
captors, Satyros, is reported as telling Theramenes that if he did
not keep quiet he'd regret it. Theramenes replied, "And if I do keep
quiet, will I not regret it?"
Hemlock actually looks like a carrot when immature, and grows to
several feet tall. It is chemically similar to nicotene, and produces
stimulant-like effects followed by a gradual extinguishing of the
nervous system, usually producing shaking. This was not included
in the Phaedrus (the Platonic speech in which Socrates dies!;( ).
Ending lines in Xenophon (Theramenes' ending lines, i.e.): "Here's
a toast to the beautiful Critias!" Various interps of the meaning
of beautiful here of course. The "better people" or aristocrats were
supposed to be kalon, meaning "beautiful, noble."
He's a tricky bugger. So easy to romanticize all of this. The Greeks
liked high drama like they liked wet t-shirt contests. There's actually
a title kalirnos or something, which means "of the beautiful rear-end," and
is often applied to Aphrodite.
Well love to all.
Elizer
From: alice
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 2:02 am
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] fundamentalism
Fundamentalism is best explain via chakras. Fund belongs
to 1st n 2nd - literalism n fear of change/security. it means well
but gets stuck in idolatry of concretism n literalism.
hence the wisdom of parables - they work on all levels.
the danger is in getting stuck at the bottom!
if u look at the caduceus n mark one bott tail A n
the other B, u will see that they switch on the next level n so 2
people can both be right but talking on 2 diff leves=the dilemma
of levels. this is the process of mercury, trickster, at work.
Fund is a very real danger in the coming yrs - not
just Christ but in all faiths - n until humanity learns how to convert
nouns into verbs, whats into hows, we all will feel threatened. that's
the bad news. the good news is, u cannot stop the thrust of a new
aion! but like nasdaq is being pruned, so will a lot of the kookiness
of new agers be swept away. jung was no kook n we will have to live
our lives as examples not just talking - unless we embody, incarnate,
our understanding - such as it may be - we cannot truly represent
what the harbingers of the future are teaching. offhand, i wld have
to say buddhism - in the light of not proselytizing but offering
a 'method' or process n jung's insight ab the inner discovery of
the Self [div Guest] by the ego/who we consc identify with - offer
hope for the futurem, as do the ESOTERIC aspects of all the religions
sufism, kabbalah, celtic christianity, genuine shamanism etc.
the Eastern religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism
are infinitely more advanced in the techniques of using the body
as a battery for higher consc [for the few ready for it] but the
West also has in its suppliants a humility n dependence on the wisdom
of nature n the grace of God to offer. Love is also a force. 'a new
commandment do I bring u - that ye love one another even as i have
loved you.'
just some reflections n now to bed!
love, what else?
ao
the coniunctio of east n west will make us global
beings n ready to take our place in the cosmos....
in the meantime, back at the ranch - Texas ranch -
stay tuned for the nitty-gritty of conflict of the opposites!
so, deb, diunna fash yersel' too much n have a warm
n loving Xmas
something i wish u all!
time for bed!
ao
From: mike
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 9:58 am
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] Who's got the blues???
Beautiful one here, Anand:
>
Vishnu / Krishna is the one who is blue, not Shiva. Shiva is the "blue-
throated" > one, from swallowing deadly poison to save the world.<
*Be it said, however, that Shiva is often represented
in his form as an ascetic yogin as grey-coloured, because rubbed
with the ashes of the cremation- grounds. This aspect carrires over
into many of the Buddhist 'Heruka' - the wrathful deities - where
(as opposed to the version given in TV travelogues where it is assumed
it's some kind of sun-screen) the cremation ash signifies freedom
from space-time... freedom from the illusion of becoming, and hence
from both birth and death...
> Vishnu is space (the blue sky), at the Vishuddhi
(throat) Chakra; Shiva is time, at the Agnya (third eye on forehead)
chakra ; the interaction of the two (time penetrating space) gives
rise to our world (of the senses). Hence Vishnu often takes the
form of an incomparably beautiful woman (Mohini the enchantress;
who is the cause of our Maya or enchantment / delusion); esoterically,
Vishnu (in the form of Balaji) is identified with the Goddess —
the womb / sphere of space, with Shiva the male (linear; motion
of time). Their intercourse (the motion of time in space) leads
to the future moving into the past. Shiva is often depicted as
white /pale; he is "shava" (corpse) without the life-giving contact
of shakti (lit. power; a name for Devi, i.e., the Goddess). Time
can't move except through space; and also, Shiva as pure consciousness
is inert without an animating power / When the kundalini rises
above the throat chakra, the aspirant transcends space or distance
between objects ("Thou art that"); this is Arjuna's vision in the
Bhagavad Gita— a partial realization. When the kundalini further
rises above the third eye, the aspirant transcends even time. The
latter is the harder task; I am reminded of Mike's recent posting
of a story with impossibly complex Buddhist names, where there
is a similiar structure (the one that was reposted in Jung-Fire).<
*Whaddaya mean, 'impossibly complex', buddy? You impugnin'?...
But of course it *is* true. What one understands, and the terms in
which one has come to understand it seem very clear to *you*, the
'understander'. However, these terms very often mean little and even
nothing (experiential *or* intellectual) to one's interlocutor. Forgive
my crass assumption.
> Krishna is the aspect of Vishnu who resides
in the heart, and represents the universalization of love. (Hence
his simultaneously making love to 1008 milkmaids, by duplicating
himself 1008 times, so each milkmaid receives his love, and each
thinks she is the sole and special object of his attentions.) One
must first experience love to all (sensient and insensient) equally
and without discrimination — the kundalini rising above the heart
chakra — before one may transcend space and time.<
*Govinda - 'The Cowherd (Skt. 'go')'. My eldest son's
name is Govinda.
>possessiveness is the enemy of the universalization
of love. (Letting go is so hard to do!) This is the basis for and
aim of sexual tantrik practices — chakra pujas [worship (puja)
withthe aspirants assembled in the form of a wheel or circle (chakra)]. <
*From another context (discussing menstruation), I
extract the following blather by the highly enlightened yours truly... "...However,
certain highly advanced yogins with almost perfect control over their
subtle energies do practice the yoga of union (which has almost nothing
to do with sex - and especially what is nowadays called 'tantrik
sex') at this time among others. The yoga of union is a subtle energy
practice and has to do with the discovery and opening up of the subtle
energy channels within the body, with the movement of these energies
along those channels and the dissolution of all attachment to structure
on an extremely subtle level (makes what generally passes for kundalini
yoga look fairly wogga-wogga)...
Part of this dissolution of attachment does, of course,
have to do with the tabu on the menstrual fluids and with cutting
through one's attachment to ideas of pure and impure and of defilement
and shame, but it also goes much deeper - the substances involved
all have very specific and so to speak puissant energies whose alchemical
combination and relationship are the subject matter of some extraordinarily
abstruse thinking. The language used is very often symbolic and evocative
rather than descriptive and knowledge - understanding - comes from
practice - personal experience refined and polished over time under
the careful tutelage of the teacher.
The tabu itself is related to the dark, the dark period
of the moon, the fearsome and unknown, and I think stems from an
extremely archaic stratum of womens' magic at a period when men were
totally unaware of the part they had to play in 'paternity'. We look
at these things now, unfortunately, through the eyes of 'enlightened
moderns', but we have in fact almost no knowledge of our own embodiment
as a living and dynamic process. The ancients and the so-called primitives
were and are much closer to being and not-being than most of us will
ever get: their knowledge is not based on observing dead examples
of becoming, but on feeling out and appreciating the process in its
very exposition... The difference between a Tibetan and an Occidental
description of the instant of conception or of foetus growth is quite
singularly revealing..."
> The difficulty with our sense organs is that
they are limited by time and space— they serve as "local magnifiers" /
filters. But I am going off on a tangent here... >
*The beauty of the sense organs is that they perceive
directly and without the slightest agenda. The interpretation of
and attachment of meaning to these sense-data is where things begin
to go awry. As Tilopa says, it is not THINGS that create obstacles
to enlightenment, but only one's attachments (positive and negative)
to things. Maya is not 'that', but a much closer 'this'.
m
From: mike
Date: Sat Dec 23, 2000 9:58 am
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] Krishna
Aren't we talking of Krishns not Vishnu?
*Both. Krishna is avatar of Vishnu.
m
From: marysk...
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 3:55 pm
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] Millennial Anxiety and Timeless Gnosis
(note: I'd mentioned a website. Mary L's response
below is to that. Deborah )
Hi, Deb, Yeah, I used to know some of those folks. A
few were great, but I suspect some of them of being crypto-fascistic. Too
conspiratorial, in my experience. I met a whole troupe (troop)
of them (Occitanie-variety) at midnight on the Solstice up in the
ruins of the chateau of Montsegur - where I had thought I was vigiling
alone on my birthday. They set up their altar and candles below
me as I watched, astounded, then removed their brown robes and stood
in serried ranks all in pure white military uniforms around one in
the morning! And when I revealed myself, with joy and bad French,
they treated me with reluctant friendship - but stole my film while
I slept!
To me, the base - the root - level of the Tree of
Life often informs the rest more than the other way around.
M. (Mary)
From: mary
Date: Tue Dec 26, 2000 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: RE: [Negative-Capability] Who's got the blues???
Hi, Anand,
There isn't a separate Sikh version. [Sikhism originated
as a martial component of Hindu society to defend against invaders
from the North West.] Yes, I got that while I was there. All
the mad bus drivers are Sikhs! Very fierce, proud, upright! And
gorgeous.
...I was sort of remembering the little shrine wall
at Manikaran. It was up on the hillside above, and may not
have been connected! The Hindu version was that Parvati
got so angry after losing her mani (ear stone) that Shiva had given
her into the river that all sorts of hot springs, earthquakes and
so on erupted all over the place. Re-reading what I wrote from
the Sikh wall at the Gurudwara, it speaks of Nanak-dev-ji on a visit
to Manikaran. He said, "Oh, Mardana, say Wahguru and lift the stone." Mardana
did, and found a hot spring, stuffed a chappati into it and found
it baked. And yes, we had a lovely meal there for a few rupees,
a totally voluntary donation, of course!
...I spent a week in his ashram at Puttaparthi one
Christmas, sang bajahns (sp.?) with him, did daily darshan
in the great square, packed in with hundreds, maybe thousands of
Indian and other women, the men on the other side. He's real!
M. (Mary)
From: C Bishop : Wed Dec 27, 2000 1:09
pm
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] Millennial Anxiety and Timeless Gnosis
Mary writes -Yeah, I used to know some of those
folks. A few were great, but I suspect some of them of being
crypto-fascistic. Too conspiratorial, in my experience. I
met a whole troupe (troop) of them (Occitanie-variety) at midnight
on the Solstice up in the ruins of the chateau of Montsegur - where
I had thought I was vigiling alone on my birthday. They set
up their altar and candles below me as I watched, astounded, then
removed their brown robes and stood in serried ranks all in pure
white military uniforms around one in the morning! And when
I revealed myself, with joy and bad French, they treated me with
reluctant friendship - but stole my film while I slept! To
me, the base - the root - level of the Tree of Life often informs
the rest more than the other way around.
Mary,
Your story reminds me of the end of Parsifal the opera (I've only seen
it once but it made an enduring impression). Very dramatic,
and very uneasy-making.
Last time I really thought about that was when I saw
the huge Anselm Kiefer called Parsifal 2, which occupies an inner
wall in the Zurich Art Museum. I don't think I've ever had
such a reaction to a painting before. I'll see if I can scan
it — I have a few copies though none of them has the physical impact
of turning a corner and walking into the original. There's
quite a lot about it in Rafael Lopez-Pedraza's book, ANSELM KIEFER,
a Jungian study off Kiefer's work. If I can get a good image
of the painting I'll copy some of Lopez-Pedraza's remarks.
Those Teutonic white knights — Lohengrin too — are
one of the many reasons I think purity is such a dubious virtue. When
it gets connected to the Grail (as it does in Eschenbach particularly)
leads to worrisome things. Pure blood for instance.
The words that go with the Grail image in Kiefer,
from Wagner, are "Redemption to the Redeemer" — that I think is
a wonderful idea and a very Jungian one — but it comes across as
arrogance if not blasphemy in the opera. That this should be
the task of a Teutonic white knight alone? There's something
deeply offensive about the assumption. It's a fascistic idea,
the elitist hero? I'm groping here....
C
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phoebe wrote:
>mike, the Tibetian Book of the Dead — is
that an honest translation of the title? Thinking about this
because, of course, what the German archaeologists called the Egyptian
Book of the Dead is properly rendered The Book of Coming Forth
by Day (or Light), a totally different concept. <
mike:
*No, Phoebe, it's not. Any more than was Budge's translation
of Per Em Hru. The actual title of the text (which is a vast corpus
of which Dawa Samdup translated only a minuscule part... Wentz's
Books 'of the Dead' and 'of the Great Liberation', but as I have
it in Tibetan, two volumes of 593 and 957 pages, respectively, and
I'm not sure I've got the entire thing)... The actual title of the
entire (Budhist) cycle (because there is an equally extensive B npo
one) is something like ''Self-liberation through Hearing - the Profound
Doctrine of the Peaceful and Wrathful Deities", generally referred
to by the Tibetans as the Bardo T' dr l, which means "Self-liberation
by Hearing in the Intermediate State" (there are 6 basic intermediate
states although, of course, any period between two others is an intermediate
state, what, in Sanskrit, is called an antarabhava) or the Karling
Shi-Tr'o, "The Peaceful and Wrathful of Karma Lingpa". Karma Lingpa
(14th. c. CE) was the discoverer of this cycle.
The six major intermediate states are, to quote the
text by my own teacher:
What is termed the bardo or intermediate state is
something which is neither here nor there but refers to a state existing
in-between. What, then, are these six states? Specifically enumerated,
they are
(1) the natural bardo of birth and existence (rang
bzhin skye gnas kyi bar do),
(2)the dream bardo of delusory mental activity (rmi
lam nying 'khrul gyi bar do),
(3) the tranquil meditation bardo of spontaneous appearance
(rang snang bsam gtan gyi bar do),
(4) the bardo of suffering at the moment of death
('chi kha sdug bsngal gyi bar do,
(5) the clear-light bardo of the quintessence of reality
(chos nyid 'od gsal gyi bar do),
and (6) the karmic-activity bardo of phenomenal existence
(srid pa las kyi bar do).
The last three and first of these are the subject
matter of the so-called 'Book of the Dead', but much of the commentarial
material speaks of all six. I hope one of these days to translate
my teacher's brief explication of this - I've started, but, as the
subject is not a little recondite, have paused for reflection (not
to mention breath!)...
m (mike)
|
"...It is not man as such who has to be regenerated or born again
as a renewed whole, but, according to the statements of mythology, it is
the hero or god who rejuvenates himself. These figures are generally
expressed or characterized by libido-symbols (light, fire, sun, etc.), so
that it looks as if they represented psychic energy. They are, in fact,
personifications of the libido. Now it is a fact amply confirmed by
psychiatric experience that all parts of the psyche, inasmuch as they
possess a certain autonomy, exhibit a personal character, like the
split-off products of hysteria and schizophrenia, mediumistic spirits,"
figures seen in dreams, etc. Every split-off portion of libido, every
complex, has or is a (fragmentary) personality. At any rate, that is how
it looks from the purely observational standpoint. But when we go into the
matter more deeply, we find that they are really archetypal formations.
There are no conclusive arguments against the hypothesis that these
archetypal figures are endowed with personality at the outset and are not
just secondary personalizations. In so far as the archetypes do not
represent mere functional relationships, they manifest themselves as
daimones, as personal agencies. In this form they are felt as actual
experiences and are not "figments of the imagination," as rationalism
would have us believe. Consequently, man derives his human personality
only secondarily from what the myths call his descent from the gods and
heroes; or, to put it in psychological terms, his consciousness of himself
as a personality derives primarily from the influence of quasi-personal
archetypes. Numerous mythological proofs could be advanced in support of
this view. .... It is, then, in the first place the god who transforms
himself, and only through him does man take part in the transformation.
..." ~CGJUNG, in CW5, SYMBOLS OF TRANSFORMATION |
|
From C: Sir Herbert Read (THE GREEN CHILD) is well
represented on the Net. Poet, critic, anarchist, art historian among
others. Among other accomplishments, Sir Herbert Read edited the
Collected Works of C. G. Jung (with M. Fordham).
Here's are two Read quotes:
I would say myself that there is no real contradiction
between art, conceived as design, and the unconscious. The
unconscious does, in fact, reveal design. Not only is the dream,
when understood, a dramatic unity, but even in its plastic
manifestations the unconscious possesses a principle of
organization. Collected Essays in Literary
Criticism, 1938
The only sin is ugliness, and if we believed this with all our
being, all other activities of the human spirit could be left to take
care of themselves. That is why I believe that art is so much
more significant than either economics or philosophy. It is the
direct measure of man's spiritual
vision. The
Meaning of Art, 1968
Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 3:30 pm To: NEGATIVE
CAPABILITY Subject: Oak (archive) From deborah:
The inspired speech of myth/ begotten of the Daimon/ reveals
that the world/ is the theater/ of the periodic revolution of
soul. Rep., 5.475e
UNDER THE OAK ~dh lawrence
You, if
you were sensible, When I tell you the stars flash signals, each one
dreadful, You would not turn and answer me "The night is
wonderful."
Even you, if you knew How this darkness soaks me
through and through, and infuses Unholy fear in my essence, you would
pause to distinguish What hurts from what amuses.
For I tell
you Beneath this powerful tree, my whole soul's fluid Oozes away
from me as a sacrifice stream At the knife of a Druid.
Again I
tell you, I bleed, I am bound with withies, My life runs out. I tell
you my blood runs out on the floor of this oak. Gout upon
gout.
Above me springs the blood-born mistletoe In the shady
smoke. But who are you, twittering to and fro Beneath the
oak?
What thing better are you, what worse? What have you to do
with the mysteries Of this ancient place, of my ancient curse? What
place have you in my histories?
~~~~~~~~
from C:
> Please tell me what you hear him saying, I'm not sure whether
I get it. Is he the tree, the sacrifice, the Druids, all of >
these? Axis mundi tree? Farmer Oak? And why blood-born
mistletoe?
~~~~~~~~
deborah:
Just found this Wilde poem about him:
SANTA DECCA
The Gods are dead: no longer do we bring
To grey-eyed Pallas crowns of
olive-leaves!
Demeter's child no more hath tithe of
sheaves,
And in the noon the careless shepherds sing,
For Pan is dead, and all the wantoning
By secret glade and devious haunt is o'er
:
Young Hylas seeks the water-springs no
more;
Great Pan is dead, and Mary's son is King.
And yet—perchance in this sea-tranced isle,
Chewing the bitter fruit of memory,
Some God lies hidden in the asphodel.
Ah Love! if such there be, then it were well
For us to fly his anger: nay, but see,
The leaves are stirring: let us watch awhile.
~OSCAR~
I've read some sinister things about mistletoe.
~~~~~~~~~
from phoebe:
In a message dated 10/10/00 1:18:20 AM, deb writes: <<
I've read some sinister things about mistletoe. >> Mistletoe is
poisonous. Odd that we put it over our heads and kiss beneath It at birth
of the sungod. Death and life again and again recycling itself. Love and
death; life and love; death and life. ——-
Pliny, Natural History, XVI, 95: The Druids - that is what they
call their magicians - hold nothing more sacred than mistletoe and a tree
on which it is growing, provided it is Valonia Oak... Mistletoe is rare
and when found, it is gathered with great ceremony, and particularly on
the sixth day of the moon... Hailing the moon in a native word that means
"healing all things", they prepare a ritual sacrifice and banquet beneath
a tree and bring up two white bulls, whose horns are bound for the first
time on this occasion. A priest arrayed in white vestments climbs the tree
and with a golden sickle cuts down the mistletoe, which is caught in a
white cloak. Then finally they kill the victims, praying to God to render
his gift propitious to those on whom he has bestowed it. They believe that
mistletoe given in a drink will impart fertility to any animal that is
barren, and that it is an antidote to all poinsons.
Gloss, in Miranda Green's The World of the Druids: Central to
Pliny's statement is the sanctity of mistletoe, both as a healing agent
and as an aid to fertility. Both these concerns are emphasized in Celtic
religious expression. Interestingly, in the modern pharmacopoeia,
mistletoe is reputed to be beneficial to sufferers of insomnia, high
blood-pressure and certain malignant tumours. Moreover, that mistletoe may
have possessed important symbolism for the Celts is suggested by its
presence as a motif in early Celtic art. Human heads bearing curious
leaf-shaped crowns are common decorative themes on both jewellery and
stone monuments. The lobed shape of the leaves on these objects closely
resembles the leaves of European mistletoe and, if such an identification
is correct, it may be that the faces depicted in this pre-Roman art are
those of gods or priests, perhaps even the Druids themselves. xx
ph
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from deborah:
Ah, hence the Greenman. I see his face here in Anne's
sculpture on my wall. All recall the Pan myth, specifically Marsyas,
who was tricked by Apollo into a piping contest. And for winning,
Apollo got to flay Marsyas, and that's his blood running, a red river back
in Greece.
This is from my holy book, Robt Lloyd Mitchell's
HYMN TO EROS (from Alcibiades)
:
". . . Alcibiades speaks of Socrates by means of images.
Socrates, he says, is like those figures of Silenus, made by craftsmen,
which sit in carver's shops: the kind that portray the satyr with a pipe
or flute in his hand, but are made so they can be opened, revealing images
of gods within.
"Socrates, then, is like and image of a satyr: an image that
contains images of gods within itself.
"Part of this we should have been expecting. Dionysus never
goes anywhere without his retinue of satyrs trailing along behind him,
including especially his teacher Silenus. The two names—satyrs and
sileni—are almost interchangeable. If anything the latter are the
elder members of the race. They are primeval daimons of fields and
rocks and thick woods; they enjoy frightening out of wits anyone who
disturbs their haunts. As if in return, men customarily represent
them as irrepressibly lustful and otherwise lazy and worthless creatures,
thick-skinned and ugly. (Much later, as in a famous statue after
Praxiteles, their features are softened ; their ugliness forgotten; they
become beautiful! ) In shape they combine animal and human features;
it is as if they embody the event of passage out of earth towards men and
the gods. They are independent cusses but yet devoted to Pan and
especially to Dionysus, who always seems to have a pack of them in his
train.
"But ... why doesn't Alcibiades just say Socrates is like a
satyr and be done with it? In fact he does do that through much of
his speech, starting now, where he says that Socrates is like the satyr
Marsyas. So why does he begin with that toy? Presumably, there
are features that that image makes visible which would not come to light
in a direct comparison to the satyr. Three things come to mind.
First, as we think of that image of the satyr, we are reminded that we are
listening, not to the god himself but to an image of him. Second,
the image, unlike the satyr himself, is not to be found in fields or
woods, but rather only in the city and its shops, crafted, as Alcibiades
innocently puts it, by a craftsman. Third, there are those images
within these figures, which nothing in the tales told about the satyrs
would prepare us for. Here the word for 'image' is *agalmata*:
originally, images specifically of the gods, though eventually coming to
refer to statues generally. But it did so out of an original meaning
of 'praise', 'exultation', 'rejoicing'. In other words, these images
do not just stand there like our 'sta-tues', 're-presenting' their object.
Instead, they glory the gods, they rejoice them. * It is out of this
activity that the gods come to visibility in these images. * Here, then,
is the image of Socrates: the image of the rough, ugly flute-carrying
satyr, hiding images within itself that invoke the presence of gods in
praise and jubilation....." ~Robert Lloyd Mitchell. HYMN TO EROS, A
reading of Plato's Symposium
ALL this a poet knows in his soul: crafting gods into visibility is
the poet's task! And the Oak (think Hardy's Gabriel Oak, and DHL's
Mellors/Parkin) holds all those gods...
And who remembers? Who hears?
"...listening, not to the god himself but to an image of
him..."
(Is it so much to ask? he comes crying at my door. That
which reveals itself so quietly now that we ignore it.)
I fear it will all just be a frozen magician in that tree,
stationary, still, yet trapped in matter, if we don't dream the future
through our yearning and desire. Act it out, be it, see it, know it
in this 'praise', 'exultation', 'rejoicing'. (Remember that despair,
that pandemic, is a sin...) Eros moves it all——-and we
become pregnant with the future.
Eros is a sort of god of Time, too, you know: oldest and youngest
god, child of need and wealth, cunning and resource.
x's Deborah (who is yes, a bit preachy. But so was
DHLawrence...)
From: Phoebe Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:46
pm Subject: Acting and acting-up
Had a discussion in my acting class yesterday about the paradox of
acting... the me/not me of acting. In a sense, it really is like the Let's
Pretend of childhood. Immersing one's self in someone else's words
and motivations is pretending, after all. We are always ourselves. I don't
agree with the old actor story about firing an actor if they believe they
are the character. When you're in another skin, it's not just the audience
that is suspending belief at the moment, the actor is, too. Skill, the
physical surroundings, the ticking of memory-banks, keep an actor from
being psychotic; but there is a loosening of ego. The moment of being
onstage, in the Now of the character, listening, responding, Being someone
else, is the most euphoric experience I've ever had. Akin to Aha!
Cosmic.
Some people have a natural instinct for acting, others have a
glowing imagination and can learn to channel it. In all my years of
teaching, I've seen only three people who had IT - the intuitive, fearless
synapse that leaps from intellect to guts to soul to utterance. It can't
be taught. The other skills - breathing, scansion, technical
physicalities, body work, literary connections - are just the tubes of
paint. Many other actors have varying degrees of that instinct, and can be
good, and sometimes excellent, actors if they are diligent and fierce. But
a born actor is a born actor.
Oddly, many many actors are actually shy and cover that up. Many
many are very private people who are compelled by their lovely demon to
take to the public fora but are only really comfortable either in some
character's skin or in a small group. Masking is considered a virtue by
most of us actor-types.
I'm not talking here about the celebrities of tv and films. The
acting is so bad on most television that it's painful to watch, especially
the comedy shows, and the sheer volume of vomit that is the film industry
is likewise not to my taste in general. The basic problem with what I
consider such bad acting is that the performers AREN'T acting, they are
acting-up, acting-out, playing themselves. The writers of these things
write the characters to fit the actor, rather than an actor creating
something. Even the character names are frequently the actor's own. What
the hell is that?
You obviously touched a sore spot. These questions have been
central to my life for so long...
Pretty day here.
x ph
From:
C Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 9:30 pm Subject:
Re: [Negative-Capability] Re: Ode on a grecian urn
10/11/00 4:11 PM, Deborah wrote: >>>
...The silver apples > of the moon the golden apples of the sun.
> >
That's pure alchemy, my lady.
Especially when it's the song of the god of Youth and Beauty and
Poetry and Love. That Yeats, what a lad he was. This belongs
in your Archive, which I think of as a sort of Arc of the Covenant.
The silver apples, the golden apples remind me a bit of Alice's yesterday
Bacchus poem! (I love the young Yeats imagining this god
growing old, that's genius. I wonder if the glimmering girl is the Secret
Most Inviolable Rose?) C
I went out to the hazel wood, Because a fire was in my
head, And cut and peeled a hazel wand, And hooked a berry to a
thread; And when white moths were on the wing, And moth-like stars
were flickering out, I dropped the berry in a stream And caught a
little silver trout.
When I had laid it on the floor I went to
blow the fire aflame, But something rustled on the floor, And some
one called me by my name. It had become a glimmering girl With apple
blossom in her hair Who called me by my name and ran And faded
through the brightening air.
Though I am old with
wandering Through hollow lands and hilly lands, I will find out
where she has gone, And kiss her lips and take her hands; And walk
among long dappled grass, And pluck till time and times are done The
silver apples of the moon, The golden apples of the
sun.
W. B. Yeats, written
1893[?], published 1897 as 'A Mad
Song'
~~~
From: Deb Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 2:15 pm
Subject: Myth again
Notes:
(Diotima, the Matte'i essay and the Symposium. etc.)
Symposium was the prime myth of the Renaissance (and Wilde, Pater,
Rossetti, Keats) (Important also because: it shows Platonism of
Jung. It Thrives Close to the Dragon!)
Forms as archetype, collective unconscious as the Masks of
God. Each affects/reflects/creates the other: It's a
dance: A sacred marriage of Becoming.
Archetype: a priori intuition expressed as instinctual
image.
Art of Becoming: Pairs of relationships: A dialectic.
Word and thing: The main business of magick is the search for
the original language that perpetuated the cosmos is this
relationship. The perfect word or symbol and their systems of
relationships, e.g. Language, or form (Kabbalistic sefiroth, sacred
geometry, Ars Memory...) .always about word and thing:
that is, the creation or generation or relationship between word and
thing. Apollonian and Dionysian; Whole and Part;
Syncretism and Analytical. Anabolic and catabolic. Anode and
cathode. Time and moment. Being and Becoming.
All carry the same language as the early Eros myth: Eros: son of
chaos, the creator, the mover, the shaper; hangs out with Desire and
Longing. Dance: Shape and shaper. Created /creator. Love and
Beloved. Penetrator and penetrated. AhHa and before
AhHa. Memory and Soul.
Eros and Beauty: mediated by memory.
Drama and theater as The Self:
The stage the center of the dance between the gods and man;
archetype and the psyche. Both wear masks, make masks for each
other, project & reflect masks, inotherowords: create the
other. Also idea of sphere as theater: the stage as the Center which
is everywhere, circumference Nowhere. As god/Self.
Unconscious/conscious.
Greeks understood this. So did Oscar. And Nietzsche and
Rossetti and Keats and Lawrence and Hardy et al. The prime Romantic
myth.
Beauty as mediator between Time and Eternity. Beauty as
Mercurious, as Daimon. Beauty as mediator between
archetype/forms/eternity and becoming. Beauty as
Truth, Truth as Beauty Never separate: always both at once. Self. The
deity dressed in time/space/matter. Rounded with a
sleep...
x's Deborah
From: mike Date: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:06
pm Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] Myth again
You might be interested in the following
http://socrates.philosophy.msstate.edu/pr/Faculty/papers/digges.html
and in the discussion on Dee and Digges and Copernicanism on the
alchemy list
Otherwise, take a look at the archives which are
at
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/a-archive1.html
Love,
me
From: C Bishop Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 4:11
pm Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] them celts
on 11/15/00 10:10 AM, Deborah wrote: >
> Maureen writes: > > Have been reading the best
ever devotional book, John O' > Donohue's *Spiritual Wisdom from the
Celtic World.* Better > than Hillman - simpler, gentler, equally
profound, though not as > demanding on the grey matter. It plays on
the soul like a breeze > on an aeolian harp.
Brighid of the
mantle encompass us, Lady of the Lambs protect us, Keeper of the
Hearth, kindle us, Beneath your mantle, gather us And restore us to
memory
Mothers of our mother, Foremothers strong, Guide our
hands in yours Remind us how To kindle the hearth,
To keep it
bright To preserve the flame, Your hands upon ours, Our hands
within yours, To kindle the light Both day and night.
The
mantle of Brighid about us, The memory of Brighid within us, The
protection of Brighid keeping us From harm, from ignorance, from
heartlessness, This day and night, From dawn till dark From dark
to
dawn.
Caitlin Matthews (in ANAM CARA, p.
180
HarperCollins pbk. (Cliff Street
Books)
pbk. 1998.)
From: Deborah Date: Thu Nov 16, 2000 3:51
pm Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] synopsis
C says synopsis of what?
This: "All true poetry— true by Housman's practical test—
celebrates come incident or scene in this very ancient history... "
I think Graves is right. Only the masks change. He's also
right that they come up in dreams and in vision quests and active
imagination. I have no doubt, having been there without a clue where
I was or was going.
"....The fact is that though the Anglo-Saxons broke the power of
the ancient British chieftains and poets they did not exterminate the
peasants, so that the continuity of the ancient British festal system
remained unaffected even when the Anglo-Saxons professed
Christianity...."
"... The Theme, briefly, is an antique story, which falls
into thirteen chapters and an epilogue, of the birth, life, death and
resurrection of the God of the Waxing Year; the central chapters concern
God's losing battle with the God of the Waning Year for love of the
capricious and all-powerful Threefold Goddess, their mother, bride, and
layer-out. The poet identifies himself with the God of the Waxing
Year and his Muse with the Goddess; the rival is his blood-brother, his
other self, his weird.
"All true poetry— true by Housman's practical test— celebrates
come incident or scene in this very ancient history, and the three main
characters are so much a part of our racial inheritance that they not only
assert themselves in poetry but recur on occasions of emotional stress in
the form of dreams, paranoiac visions and delusions.
"The weird, or rival, often appears in nightmare as the tall, lean,
dark-faced spectre, or Prince of the Air, who tries to drag the dreamer
out through the window, so that he looks back and sees his body still
lying rigid in bed; but he takes countless malevolent or diabolic or
serpent-like forms.
"The Goddess is a lovely, slender woman with a hooked nose, deathly
pale face, lips red as rowan-berries, startlingly blue eyes and long
hair... Her names are innumerable...." ~Robert Graves, The White
Goddess
So then—the Greenman still speaks and moans in all those
trees. DHLawrence a good friend of Graves, too. The above from the
1st chapter of The White Goddess. Spoken in dreams, intuition, trees, the
old ways.
Do this in memory *with* me.
Summa felicitas, Deborah
——- Original Message ——- From: C Sent: Thursday,
November 16, 2000 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability]
synopsis
I have to see if it applies to Yehuda! Maybe
yes maybe no. Maybe sometimes. He's my Poet of the
Millennium.
C
From: alice Date: Mon Dec 4, 2000 2:20 pm Subject: Re:
[Negative-Capability]ego
Ego=center of cosciousness - who we THINK
we are - it's at circumference of mandala of psyche, mediating between
outer world n inner archetypal contents of psyche. centerpt=Self/div
guest - or as cgj says the center n totality of psyche. the centerpt
lives in unconscious, so it needs ego to function in 3-dim world - God
can't eat a poached egg! the plot of the play is:
1-we are born in
uroboric state
2-we develop an ego that bears our name
3-we
event identify w/ego n forget centerpt
4-go aroundd in circles
searching [words have same root!]
5-crisis!
6-turn inward
seeking the center thereby establishing communic - 'the Only Way'
traveled by all avatars.
7-wh ego surrenders in devotion to 'Christ
w/in, atman, etv. then indiv is possible
cgj
(CGJung)- individuation, theologically understood, is
incarnation.
cf the prodigal son, hesse's NARCISSUS N GOLDMUND or
Yeats's VACILLATION.
for more, my WEB IN THE SEA.
ego's
mantra: descartes' 'cogito ergo sum' - i think therefore i am!
had
a dream, wh W was still here, in Loatin: cogito ergo sum ergo
scivio deus est. woke up the polar bear who made me write it down: i
think therefore i am therefore i [can] KNOW God
is.
phew!
now to work
i love
you!:}
ao
will send u reprint of article REFLECTIONS ON THE
EGO-SELF AXIS [they wouldn't title it God can't eat a poached
egg!
Krishnan writes:
Dear Alice, Thanks for your kind words. My comments follow: AOH:
so, i have to agree w/jung - the atman/self/christ w/in needs the ego to
function in our temporary life, n we give it our name, n identify w/it
until, until it dawns on us that something greater created us. I did not
intend to take a stand on the existence or non-existence of the ego; I
don't know the answer (haven't been there), and perhaps I did not come
across clearly. In fact, of the three major systems I discussed- advaita
vedanta, sankhya and tantra, only advaita vedanta posits a
merger/dissolution of the ego (Atman) into the Brahman. There are, as
well, other purely dualistic systems (such as dvaita = two-fold) and
quasi-dualistic systems (that posit the "Different-yet-not-quite-Separate"
Bheda-Abheda, etc.). The Bhakti (devotional) traditions are often
dualistic. In fact, *all* the Bhakti traditions that assert their
superiority over the path of Gnana (knowledge) are dualistic, because the
end is a duality of worshipper and worshipped. [Only Gnana can take
you to a non-dual state, as acknowledged by both schools; the argument is
over which is the "ultimate" state.] Ramakrishna (the famous Kali devotee)
for some time during his later years had a Advaita guru named Tota Puri.
The story goes that Tota guided R to the "higher" (per Tota) state of
non-dual realization, beyond R's lila with Kali. R reportedly said later
that he preferred the state of interaction through intense devotion,
with Kali, than the monistic realization. He said, "I want to taste the
honey; I do not want to become it." Nevertheless, the question remains,
what was the state attained by R through Tota, and acknowledged by both as
"merging with Brahman"? Hasn't this state been described in many of the
Buddhist traditions as well, Mike? Anyway, these are probably academic
questions, of only theoretical interest in at least in my present stateof
consciousness :-).
There is a continuum of egoism, is there not? What use speculating
on the journey's end? (BTW, this also related to the other major
difference between Jung and the Eastern paths: is there an end or
not?)
AOH: so how do we measure a lifetime - i think of cgj's
TRANSFORMATION SYMBOLISM IN THE MASS - one of his gems. in it, he answers
a question i had asked myself ever since i was a child - why are we asked
to sacrifice - ritually speaking? jung states that only by giving away
something can we become conscious of the fact that we HAVE it!! bec u
can't give away something u don't have. that makes sense to me. n so i
realize that all i can keep is what i have given - what a
paradox!
Terrific article. Also related is his article in Modern Man in
Search of a Soul, titled (I believe) "The Spiritual Problem of Modern
Man". I posted the quote once in J-F or J-C. This was that only in
proportion to one's conscious saccrifice can one demand freedom from the
rules of the collective... he said it much more eloquently. I'll try
to find it, or maybe somebody with a better archiving system can do
so.
Love, - Anand
From: Anand Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 9:23 pm Subject: Dynamic
Equilibrium Deb, Glad to know you are well.
I use the word "dynamic" to connote an equilibrium that is
essentially self-correcting, to restore the balance. Let me give you
a classic example (there are many real examples recorded from
nature). Consider a population / ecosystem of "hawks" and "doves". These
are indistinguishable except for one characteristic: when they
forage for food, the hawks are aggressive and the doves are meek. When a
hawk comes upon another (hawk or dove) eating food, it attacks to gain the
food. When a dove comes upon another (hawk or dove) eating food, it
avoids conflict. The other bird reacts similiarly (depending on whether it
is a hawk or dove); e.g., a dove when threatened by a hawk would give up
its food and fly away. Another hawk would fight to the death.
This would be a self-correcting system, with the hawks and doves in
dynamic equilibrium.
Suppose, for some reason, there are too many hawks in the
ecosystem. Then a random bird eating food is very likely to be a
hawk. It is optimal for another bird that comes across the first one
to avoid conflict rather than fight, i.e., dove behavior is advantageous.
Hence over time, as the hawks die out due to their suboptimal
behavior, and the doves flourish, the appropriate equilibrium ratios are
restored.
Similarly, suppose there are too many doves in the ecosystem. 'Hawk
behavior'(confrontation) is advantageous, since the other bird is likely
to fly away rather than fight. So the hawks gain gradually, while the
doves lose, until the appropriate population ratios are restored. Also,
this is "harmonious" at the species level, but not necessarily at the
individual bird-level. Now substitute "C" for Hawk and "Phoebe" for
Dove, or vice-versa... The best we can hope for here is a dynamic
equilibrium. Cheers, Anand
Subject: RE: [Negative-Capability] Lo how a Rose >Yeah, more
a dynamic than static equilibrium. >- Anand
I'd say, based on
my feelings about the natural world, it isn't a balance But a harmony.
That is what Nature seeks and probably we do,
too.
x ph
Can't speak for Buddhist or Hindu but in Egypt we speak of the Boat
of Millions of Years, the continuum that is space and time, life and
deathlessness, self-created and infinite. And to walk the path of Ma'at is
like being on a balance beam that is the interface between the spiritual
and the mundane. They are not separate but simultaneous. smiling,
phoebe
PS - I didn't lose my voice-over gig because of my cold.
From: mike Date: Thu Dec 7, 2000 10:09 am Subject: Re:
[Negative-Capability] Dynamic Equilibrium
A Japanese saying: - 'The stillness in stillness is not really
stillness; stillness in action is stillness indeed.'
The basic meaning also has to do with the fact that anything that
seems notto be moving will sooner or later be set (or found to be) in
motion and is therefore not really 'still' except relatively, whereas
'stillness in motion' - in action - has to do with not losing one's centre
- the 'unformed' - in the passing show...
(mike)
From: C Date: Wed Dec 6, 2000 9:43 pm Subject: Re:
[Negative-Capability] Dynamic Equilibrium
on 12/6/00 4:23 PM, Anand
wrote:
>Now substitute "C" for Hawk and "Phoebe" for Dove,
or vice-versa... >The best we can hope for here is a dynamic
equilibrium.
Did any of you ever read T. H. White's THE GOSHAWK, the story of
his attempts to learn falconry from some ancient medieval (I think)
treatise? There was even a documentary made of it. An enchanting
book.
White was alternately delighted and exasperated by the hawk
behavior (I think there were two, Gos and Cully, though Cully may have
been the owl in SWORD IN THE STONE), and the birds' failure to do what the
treatise said they would do.
I always remembered (music trivia being my speciality) that White
taught one of them to come for its food on signal — the signal being
White's singing "The Lord's My Shepherd" in the Scottish metrical version
of the hymn. White I imagine in the role of the Lord and the falcon not
wanting. Like most of his experiments, this didn't quite work the way it
was intended to. You could say that about the Lord, too.
>Cheers, Anand
You do, Anand, you do. Cheer. The I who I am today is busy buying a
bodhran for her grandson. Rosewood sounds nice. It's 18 inches diameter,
almost as big as Colin William. The thing you play it with is called (by
some) a tipper, which gives a whole new image of Mr. Gore.
C
From: C Date: Fri Dec 8, 2000 12:20 pm Subject: Re:
[Negative-Capability] Dynamic Equilibrium as Mode & Melody
on
12/8/00 6:15 AM, mike wrote > Six lines sounds about right. Also,
although it's useful to steer by the > reefs, it *is* the
passes between them that allow for progress - You >steer FOR those,
knowing the others are there. Phoebe's right. > Aeolian 'authentic'
is DO RE MIb FA SOL LAb TIb... The 'plagal' is DO REb > MI FA SOL
LAb TIb. You might also think of using the following two >
pentatonic scales: DO MIb FA SOL TIb and DO MI FA SOL TI with >
accidentals RE and TIb to give the 'pedal', the structure, for example,
of > many jigs and reels, but also found in slow airs such as 'The
Laghnan >Sidh' (possibly better known as 'My Lagan Love') and 'She
Moves through the Fair'. > > Modal and melodic
morning-musings... > > m
Do I know MY LAGAN LOVE? Is it on that folksong site I found
I wonder? And what is happening in SHE MOVES THROUGH THE FAIR?
That lyric is so lovely — and so enigmatic. It's that image of some
sort of dance — a haunting is it?
Mike was responding to an email a propos finding a director for THE
IMMORTAL HOUR, Fiona Macleod's fairy play. This part:
My musical friend Frank Nakashima came to dinner and we discussed
modes and scales and agreed there was something especially agreeable about
Aeolian. I never can remember which is which. Frank thought I Wonder
as I Wander is Aeolian and he is usually right. I'm wondering as I
wander what modes the Sidh of — what was it about first century or was it
tenth — would sing in. On the Boughton opera it all sounds like
Turandot or Butterfly, except for scene where Etain meets the High
King.
Our other subject of debate (and harmony) was whether Jesus Christ
the Apple Tree is singable in the Poston arrangement always used.
Because of one high note.
C
From: "Anand" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:31 pm Subject: Who's
got the blues???
Mary, Vishnu / Krishna is the one who is blue, not Shiva. Shiva is
the "blue-throated" one, from swallowing deadly poison to save the world.
Vishnu is space (the blue sky), at the Vishuddhi (throat) Chakra; Shiva is
time, at the Agnya (third eye on forehead) chakra ; the interaction of the
two (time penetrating space) gives rise to our world (of the senses).
Hence Vishnu often takes the form of an incomparably beautiful woman
(Mohini the enchantress; who is the cause of our Maya or enchantment /
delusion); esoterically, Vishnu (in the form of Balaji) is identified with
the Goddess — the womb / sphere of space, with Shiva the male (linear;
motion of time). Their intercourse (the motion of time in space) leads to
the future moving into the past. Shiva is often depicted as white / pale;
he is "shava" (corpse) without the life-giving contact of shakti (lit.
power; a name for Devi, i.e., the Goddess). Time can't move except through
space; and also, Shiva as pure consciousness is inert without an animating
power / energy (shakti). When the kundalini rises above the throat chakra,
the aspirant transcends space or distance between objects ("Thou art
that"); this is Arjuna's vision in the Bhagavad Gita— a partial
realization. When the kundalini further rises above the third eye,
the aspirant transcends even time. The latter is the harder task; I am
reminded of Mike's recent posting of a story with impossibly complex
Buddhist names, where there is a similiar structure (the one that
was reposted in Jung-Fire).
Krishna is the aspect of Vishnu who resides in the heart, and
represents the universalization of love. (Hence his simultaneously making
love to 1008 milkmaids, by duplicating himself 1008 times, so each
milkmaid receives his love, and each thinks she is the sole and special
object of his attentions.) One must first experience love to all (sensient
and insensient) equally and without discrimination — the kundalini rising
above the heart chakra — before one may transcend space and time. From
this perspective, possessiveness is the enemy of the universalization of
love. (Letting go is so hard to do!) This is the basis for and aim of
sexual tantrik practices — chakra pujas [worship (puja) with the
aspirants assembled in the form of a wheel or circle (chakra)]. The
difficulty with our sense organs is that they are limited by time and
space— they serve as "local magnifiers" / filters. But I am going off on
a tangent here... - Anand
From:mike Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 10:11 am
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] alex*
a-HA!... That is a VERY pleasing sight! In 'Atalanta Fugiens' -
'The Fleeting Atalanta' - Maier says:(Epigramma XV): Look how, swift
and fleet, The potter forms his vases on the turning Wheel, Mixing
the while the water with his feet: In two things does he place his
trust By art with humidity Tempering the dry dust. So also do you,
instructing yourself of this example, That water not o'er earth
prevail, Nor yet the earth your water veil. m
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1=ONE! I think this is worth
sharing: The first step toward the non-religion of the western world was
made by religion itself. When it defended great symbols, not as symbols,
but as literal stories, it had already lost the battle. In doing so, the
theologians (and today many religious laymen) helped to transfer the
powerful expressions of the dimension of depth into objects or happenings
on the horizontal plane. There the symbols lose their power and become an
easy prey to physical, biological and historical attack. Paul Tillich -
THE LOST DIMENSION IN RELIGION love ao
|
From:phoebe
date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:16 pm
Subject: 5 dimensions
Faster than you can say "Ekpyrotic
Universe," a movement has taken hold — albeit like fingers on a ledge of
eternal skepticism — that would blow one of the basic tenets of the Big
Bang to smithereens. Think parallel branes and five dimensions. Science
never sounded so cool. The new idea would not replace the Big Bang,
which has for more than 50 years dominated cosmologists' thinking over
how the universe began and evolved. But instead of a universe springing
forth in a violent instant from an infinitely small point of infinite
density, the new view argues that our universe was created when two
parallel "membranes" collided cataclysmically after evolving slowly in
five-dimensional space over an exceedingly long period of time.— Night
Sights
From: mike
*This is fascinating whether you eat your carrots or not. I've always
revolted against the idea of a big bang (with or without capitals) as
the starting-point of it all - After all, if there were one on one
level, it stands to reason, does it not, that if there is any such a
thing as consistency in this universe (and beyond it), there would be
others on other levels, but, right down to the ultra-microscopic and,
one might suppose, beyond, this phenomenon of exploding into existence,
with or without anterior cause, is conspicuous only in its absence. I'm
not sure I go for this one as much as I do for string-theory (which also
has as many holes in it as a Swiss cheese), but... yes... there HAS to
be another explanation, and - indeed - encoded in much that would appear
mythical/religious, - there is... even 'are'... Many. And far more
plausible.
I personally tend to the
opinion that 'universe' is coterminous with - identical with -
'knowing', and that they arose simultaneously, which is to say that they
are a 'wrinkle' in 'real time', 'real space', 'real knowing' and have
never either really come into existence or not come into existence. We
tend to stick on the level that 'knowing' is inherent only in the animal
realm, and that the vegetable and mineral realms of 'lesser' and 'no'
awareness are the only others that exist, but 'knowing' - and on a far
vaster than merely day-to-day human scale - has always been deemed by
the more sensitive among us to exist, and even to exist equally well on
an eternal and infinite as well as momentary and infinitessimal scale -
that they are necessary aspects, the one of the other.
'Knowing' is the
conscious vector of 'time-space', 'space' the presentingness vector of
experienced awareness; and 'time' the duration of any given awareness of
presence and/or absence - They are utterly - and unutterably -
inextricable, the one from the other, as are the facets of each of these
vectors - the beforenesses, afternesses and nownesses, leftnesses,
rightnesses, centrenesses and before-and-behindnesses, and mere-
awarenesses, conscious-awarenesses and un-awarenesses - each from each
other. Time and space are, as it were, the 'opacity' of our knowing.
Knowing *outside* of time and space, or - differently put - in 'real'
time and 'real' space, is of a completely different nature.
Alice often speaks of the
dimensionless point at the centre of the circle, but that point is so
vast that any given one of them completely pervades the entire universe,
completely pervades all circles to the extent that they themselves
become nothing more than dancing motes of rainbow light upon its
infinite surface. And this is just the beginning of the thing!...
F. Russ Trated I think
I'm going to toss this on the fire too...
From: Deborah
Date: Thu Apr 16, 2001
3:01 am
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] 5 dimensions
Aah. They're all just
models. Poems. Dissolve and coagulate. Bird burns, burn rises, bird
burns, bird rises... bird swings on chandelier.
From: Phoebe
In a message dated 4/18/01 10:32:03 AM, mike writes:
<< Alice often speaks of
the dimensionless point at the centre of the circle, but that point is
so vast that any given one of them completely pervades the entire
universe, completely pervades all circles to the extent that they
themselves become nothing more than dancing motes of rainbow light upon
its infinite surface. And this is just the beginning of the thing!... >>
Whole post well spoke,
lad! Made me smile thinking of a time in my graduate cultural history
class when I got suckered into explaining "Is and Is-Not". We had read
pieces of the Tao Te Ching and my students were confused. I think they
were more confused at the end of the discussion.
On my path, Mike, we call
it The Boat of Millions of Years... meaning the continuum going in all
directions.
love,
ph
From: alice
mike, u come very close....
the prob, as i see it, is
that as long as we are trying to solve the prob with our consc minds, we
will fail! for the simple reason that thinking is based on
duality:beginn n ends. i.e. one cannot really think of infinity n grasp
it.
as u pt out , we can
discover bigger n bigger n smaller n smaller - the closest perhaps is
fractals wh prove processes - so we are caught in a koan
BUT perhaps in evolution
we may yet develop an organ that we have in potentia that can deal
w/this question. like am radio growing into fm....
i have no doubt that
there may be a few enlight beings already so equipped i'm thinking of
ADAM KADMON n how does a visiting atom in my big toe know me or how can
i as an atom in the body of AK or God know them.
The ocean is not afraid
of the drop's philosophy......Upanishads?
but the disc of 2
membranes parallel sounds quite erotic! well, love makes the world go
round as Dante n Goethe remind us
we cld call it the
orgasmic theory of creation - the real BIG BANG!!!
yr giggling
ao!
From:Deb
Date: Thu Apr 16, 2001 12:29 pm
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] 5 dimensions
what time is it?it is by every star
what time is it?it is by every star
a different time,and each most falsely true;
or so subhuman superminds declare
—nor all their times encompass me and you:
when are we never,but forever now
(hosts of eternity;not guests of seem)
believe me,dear,clocks have enough to do
without confusing timelessness and times.
Time connot children,poets,lovers tell—
measure imagine,mystery,a kiss
—not though mankind would rather know than feel;
mistrusting utterly that timelessness
whose absence would make your whole life and my
(and infinite our)merely to undie -e.e.cummings
I think I understand what
alice was saying. The leaf knows the tree. Chiaro's soul in Rossetti's
story puts it: One drop of rain is as another, and the sun's prism in
all: and shalt not thou be as he, whose lives are the breath of One?
Like Campbell and others said, we are the eyes and ears of Gaia.
And—all that missing Dark
Matter needed to make the columns add up to fit our understanding. We
learn again that we need another way of seeing. The laws of
thermodynamics, say, fit our little existence quite well — especially
the second law. :) But now — we see there's more to see. Much escapes
us. Most. And yet — the tendency is to defend the old vision. Always
shortsighted. And so many foundations to teach the prejudice. HERITAGE
FOUNDATION-ISM. I like the little human animal and would hate to see him
destroyed by his stubborn materialism of things intellectual and
spiritual.
Persephone (who was
Night, the consort of Apollo in the original tantric source of this
myth) eating the pomegranate seeds that bind her between
creative/destructive Eros — Psyche ( Cupid and Psyche) who is put
through Love's agony because she insisted on seeing her divine lover —
Orpheus who loses his love finally because he 'looks back' — all of
these myths are warning us of the fatal foolishness of taking spiritual
'truths' literally. The dangers and derangement of Fundamentalism.
But I like the Big Bang.
It's a fitting myth for the experience of life. Blooming and then
shutting down for the night. The One breathing. Matter coming from
stars, all the elements in your very body, in a planet, coming from
those brave lights. The One giving its flesh and remaking itself in
endless ways. Creating time and space with its flesh. But that's a
projection of consciousness, too. But why should that intuition be
wrong?
Rose of All the World
I am here myself; as though this heave of effort
At starting other life, fulfilled my own;
Rose-leaves that whirl in color round a core
Of seed-specks kindled lately and softly blown
By all the blood of the rose-bush into being -
Strange, that the urgent will in me, to set
My mouth on hers in kisses, and so softly
To bring together two strange sparks, beget
Another life from our lives, so should send
The innermost fire of my own dim soul out-spinning
And whirling in blossom of flame and being upon me!
That my completion of manhood should be the beginning
Another life from mine! For so it looks.
The seed is purpose, blossom accident.
The seed is all in all, the blossom lent
To crown the triumph of this new descent.
Is that it, woman? Does it strike you so?
The Great Breath blowing a tiny seed of fire
Fans out your petals for excess of flame,
Till all your being smokes with fine desire?
Or are we kindled, you and I, to be
One rose of wonderment upon the tree
Of perfect life, and is our possible seed
But the residuum of the ecstasy?
How will you have it? - the rose is all in all,
Or the ripe rose-fruits of the luscious fall?
The sharp begetting, or the child begot?
Our consummation matters, or does it not?
To me it seems the seed is just left over
From the red rose-flowers' fiery transience;
Just orts and slats; berries that smoulder in the bush
Which burnt just now with marvellous immanence.
Blossom, my darling, blossom, be a rose
Of roses unchidden and purposeless; a rose
For rosiness only, without an ulterior motive;
For me it is more than enough if the flower unclose.
~D. H. Lawrence
summa felicitas,
Deborah
From: mike
Date: Thu Apr 19, 2001 5:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Negative-Capability] Re: [ dimensions+
>aoh wrote: The ocean is
not afraid of the drop's philosophy......Upanishads?>
*Yes, indeed.
But what I'm trying to say is that there's a way of knowing *beyond*
'knowing', of timing beyond 'time' and spacing beyond 'space'... That
'here and now' is not necessarily only 'this time and this place' as
seen via a single focus-pull but can be simultaneously infinitely vast
and infinitessimally tiny without any obstruction.
This knowing has nothing
to do with duality because what knows and what is being known are
nothing but aspects of each other. The vastness aspect is its essence,
the knowingness aspect its quintessential nature and the known/active
aspect its all-encompassing compassionate energy. It has nothing to do
with subject and object, known and unknown, choice and unchoice, even
with being and unbeing, but is of a completely different order and hence
inexpressible, ineffible IN TERMS OF prealotted meaning or even
meaningfulness, but this does not mean that it cannot be known. On the
contrary.
Two things veil it from
us, if you like: negativity and obscuring mental defilement on the one
hand, and primitive beliefs about reality on the other. I don't know if
I sent you all Khyentse Rinpoche's pith-instructions of Dzogchen
meditation, which is to say meditation upon the innate great perfection
beyond all notions of duality so I'm going to add it here just in case.
Pith Instructions on the
Great Perfection
His Holiness Dilgo
Khyentse Rinpoche
". . .The everyday
practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and openness to all
situations and emotions, and to all people, experiencing everything
totally without mental reservations and blockages, so that one never
withdraws or centralises into oneself.
This produces a
tremendous energy which usually is locked up in the process of mental
evasion and a general running away from life experiences. Clarity of
awareness may, in its initial stages, be unpleasant or fear- inspiring;
if so, then one should open oneself completely to the pain or the fear
and welcome it. In this way the barriers created by one's own habitual
emotional reactions and prejudices are broken down.
When performing the
meditation practice one should develop the feeling of opening oneself
completely to the whole universe with absolute simplicity and nakedness
of mind, ridding oneself of all protecting barriers. Don't mentally
split into two when meditating, one part of the mind watching the other
like a cat watching a mouse. One should realise that one does not
meditate to go deeply within oneself and withdraw from the world. In
Buddhist yoga, even when meditating on chakras there is no introspection
concentration: complete openness of mind is the essential point.
The ground of samsara and
nirvana is the alaya, the beginning and the end of confusion and
realisation, the nature of universal shunyata and of all apparent
phenomena. It is even more fundamental than the trikaya and is free from
bias toward enlightenment. It is sometimes called the ‘pure’ or
‘original’ mind.
Although prajña (wisdom)
sees in it no basis for such concepts as different aspects, the
fundamental aspects of complete openness, natural perfection, and
absolute spontaneity are distinguished by upaya (skilful means) as
useful devices.
All aspects of every
phenomenon are completely clear and lucid. The whole universe is open
and unobstructed, everything mutually interpenetrating. Seeing all
things nakedly, clear and free from obscurations, there is nothing to
attain or realise. The nature of things naturally appears and is
naturally present in time-transcending awareness; this is complete
openness. Everything is perfect just as it is, completely pure and
undefiled. All phenomena naturally appear in their uniquely correct
modes and situations, forming ever-changing patterns full of meaning and
significance, like participants in a great dance. Everything is a
symbol, yet there is no difference between the symbol and the truth
symbolised. With no effort of practice whatsoever, liberation,
enlightenment, and buddhahood are already fully developed and perfected.
This is natural perfection.
The everyday practice is
just ordinary, is life itself. Since the underdeveloped state does not
exist there is no need to behave in any special way or try to attain or
practice anything. There should be no need of
striving to reach some exalted goal or higher state; this simply
produces something conditional or artificial that will act as an
obstruction to the free flow of the mind. One should never think of
oneself as ‘sinful’ or worthless, but as naturally pure and perfect,
lacking nothing.
When performing
meditation practice one should think of it as just a natural function of
everyday living, like eating or breathing, not as a special, formal
event to be undertaken with great seriousness and solemnity. One must
realise that to meditate is to pass beyond effort, beyond practice,
beyond aims and goals,and beyond the dualism of bondage and liberation.
Meditation is always
perfect, so there is no need to correct anything. Since Everything that
arises is simply the play of the mind, there are no ‘bad’ meditation
session and no need to judge thoughts as good or evil. Therefore one
should not sit down to meditate with various hopes or fears about the
outcome: one just does it with no self-conscious feeling of ‘I am
meditating’ and without attempting to control or force the mind, and
without trying to become peaceful. If one finds that one is going astray
in any of these ways, one should stop meditating and simply rest and
relax for awhile before resuming.
If, either during or
after meditation, one has experiences that one interprets as results,
they should not be made into anything special; recognize that they are
just phenomena and simply observe them. Above all, do not attempt to
recreate them as this opposes the natural spontaneity of the mind.
All phenomena are
completely new and fresh and absolutely unique, entirely free from all
concepts of past, present, and future as if experienced in another
dimension of time; this is absolute spontaneity. The continual stream of
new discovery and fresh revelation and inspiration that arises at every
moment is the manifestation of the eternal youth of the living dharma
and its wonders; splendour and spontaneity is the play or dance aspect
of the universe as guru.
One should learn to see
everyday life as a mandala in which one is at the centre, and be free of
the bias and prejudice of past conditioning, present desires, and hopes
and expectations about the future.
The figures of the
mandala are the day-to-day objects of one's life experiences moving in
the great dance of the play of the universe, the symbolism by which the
guru reveals profound and ultimate meaning and significance.
Therefore, be natural and
spontaneous; accept and learn from everything. See the comical, amusing
side of irritating situations. In meditation, see through the illusion
of past, present, and future. The past is but a present memory or
condition, the future but a present projection, and the present itself
vanishes before it can be grasped.
One should put an end to
conceptions about meditation and free oneself from memories of the past.
Each moment of meditation is completely unique and full of potentiality
of new discovery so one is incapable of judging meditation by past
experience or by theory.
Simply plunge straight
into meditation at this very moment with your whole mind, and be free
from hesitation, boredom, or excitement. When meditating it is
traditional and best, if possible, to sit cross-legged with the back
erect but not rigid. However, it is most important to feel comfortable,
so it is better to sit in a chair if sitting cross-legged is painful.
One's mental attitude should be inspired by the three fundamental
aspects, whether the meditation is with or without form, and it may
often prove desirable, if not essential, to precede a period of formless
meditation by a period of meditation with form.
To provide for this
eventuality many classes of preliminary meditation practices have been
developed over centuries of Buddhist practice, the most important being
meditations on breathing, mantra recitation, and visualisation
techniques. To engage in the second and third of these classes, personal
instruction from one's guru is required, but a few words on the first
would not be out of place here as the method used varies little from
person to person.
First, let the mind
follow the movement of the breath, in and out, until it becomes calm and
tranquil. Then increasingly rest the mind on the breath until one's
whole being seems identified with it.
Finally become aware of
the breath leaving the body and going out into space, and gradually
transfer the attention from the breath to the sensation of spaciousness
and expansion. By letting this final sensation merge into complete
openness, one moves into the sphere of formless meditation.
In all probability the
above description of the three fundamental aspects will seem vague and
inadequate. This is inevitable since they attempt to describe what is
not only beyond words but beyond thought as well. They invite practice
of what it is, essentially, a state of being.
The words are simply a
form a upaya, skilful means, a hint which if acted upon, will enable
one's innate wisdom and naturally perfect action to arise spontaneously.
Sometimes in meditation
one may experience a gap in one's normal consciousness, a sudden and
complete openness. This experience arises only when one has ceased to
think in terms of meditation and the object of meditation. It is a
glimpse of reality, a sudden flash that occurs infrequently at first,
and then, with continued practice, more and more frequently. It may not
be a particularly shattering or explosive experience at all, just a
moment of great simplicity. Do not make the mistake of deliberately
trying to force these experiences to recur, for to do so is to betray
the naturalness and spontaneity of reality..."
> we cld call it the
orgasmic theory of creation - the real BIG BANG!!!>
*It makes more sense in
that the blooming of anything, no matter how swift it may seem from
without, always takes time in terms of its own focal level.
m
From: alice
thanks for that mike - i
call that state being aware it has to do w/distinction between mercury/
thinking consc n uranus - higher oct of merc=intuition; also w/venus
=human relationships n neptune, higher oct = vehicle for ineffable.
easiest process to make
symbolic is radio am to fm [hearing] then internet [seeing] then color
movies on internet sound/vision/colour - each step adding a dimension.
but even all this is just a mirror n not the REAL
btw - i do want to
protest the image of the body just being a corpse we drag around!!
occult anatomy teaches the wondrous gift that the body is - the temple
of spirit- n Sophia wld have a fit! every breath we take is a miracle -
it is the vehicle for incarnation n by golly we shld appreciate it -
just the wonder of a newborn baby w/wee fingernails, eyelashes, eyes!
the feminine gives FORM to life!! hence 'mother nature' or Dame Kinde
n i'm appreciat of what
i've got left - so there! n i bet mary wld agree
the auld cailleach,
grateful that she can still walk, talk, n use 1 fing to
write this!
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
ao
from mike
aoh wrote: > thanks for
that - i call that state being aware <
*'Natural pure awareness'
is a fair translation of the Tibetan word, 'rigpa' -'vidya' in Sanskrit,
from which stem 'wissen' and 'wit' (via 'to wit') - which is the essence
of the great perfection view, so... yes, definitely...
> it has to do
w/distinction between mercury/ thinking consc n uranus -higher oct of
merc=intuition; also w/venus =human relationships n neptune, higher >
oct = vehicle for ineffable.
*That's certainly the way
I would describe the resonances of these 'outer' planets. I'm amazed you
do, too.
>easiest process to make
symbolic is radio am to fm [hearing] then internet [seeing] then color
movies on internet sound/vision/colour - each step adding a dimension.
but even all this is just a mirror n not the REAL>
*In the same way that the
analogy of sunlight within infinite space is just a finger pointing...
They are crutches... The thing has nothing to do with 'understanding'...
> btw - i do want to
protest the image of the body just being a corpse we drag around!!>
*Good.
It's there for exactly that reason.
> occult anatomy teaches
the wondrous gift that the body is - the temple of spirit- n Sophia wld
have a fit! every breath we take is a miracle - it is the vehicle for
incarnation n by golly we shld appreciate it - just the wonder of a
newborn baby w/wee fingernails, eyelashes, eyes! the feminine gives FORM
to life!! hence 'mother nature' or Dame Kinde
*The tantric view is that
the body, speech and mind and all their products are all perfect
mandalas of deities, and, as such, should not be damaged or discredited
in any way. This, however, includes the strange belief seemingly held by
many - particularly - occidentals, that the body is some sort of vehicle
for the spirit, a sort of frame on which the head wanders about and
which needs occasional upkeep. You should see the bulk of first-time
t'ai chi students: you'd think they'd never even *seen* a body, let
alone had one! Hence the particular wording.
'Who is it that recites
the Buddha's name?' is for those who imagine they can convince with
word; 'who is dragging this corpse round here, anyway?' for those who
have no idea where or what they are; 'who am I?' for 'thinkers'... The
point is not the question but the answer.
> n i'm appreciat of what
i've got left - so there! n i bet mary wld agree .
*Being which as it ever
so may, me dear... all bodies arise, age, sicken and die... The 'person'
- the conscious awareness that inhabits body after body, and has done so
since the beginningless beginnings of time - also changes and moves on.
Only the ultimate quintessence of being - the vast and space-
like awareness - doesn't... everything else is relative, and, in its
relativity, subject to change... Of course one appreciates it! It is a
miracle.
> the auld cailleach,
grateful that she can still walk, talk, n use 1 fing to write this!
> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
*Taking
Happiness and Suffering as the Path
HO KYI NA GA' TE GE WA TS'OG SU NGO
Rejoicing if I am happy, I shall dedicate it to the accumulation of
merit:
P'EN DANG DE WE NAM KA' GANG WAR SHOG
May well-being and joy fill all of space.
DUG NA GA' TE KÜN GYI DUG NGÄL 'KUR
Rejoicing if I am suffering, I shall take upon myself the suffering of
all
beings:
DUG NGÄL 'KOR WA'I GYAM TSO TONG WAR SHOG
May the ocean of suffering that is cyclic existence be emptied.
NA NA GA' TE TS'E RAB LE NGEN 'DZE
Rejoicing in illness, I shall consume the evil karma of my series of
previous lives:
LÜ CHEN KÜN GYI NA GO CHÖ PAR SHOG
For all embodied beings may the doorway of illness be eliminated.
SHI NA GA' TE CHÖ NYI NGANG LA 'CHI
Rejoicing in death, I shall die into the state of absolute thusness:
KYE 'CHI 'KOR WA'I TSA WA CHÖ PAR SHOG
May the cycle of births and deaths be cut off at its root.
MI TS'E RING NA GA' TE TS'OG NYI KYI
Rejoicing now that my human life is long, let the goals of myself and
all
others be
spontaneously realised
RANG SHEN DÖN NYI LHÜN GYI 'DRUB PAR SHOG
By the twofold accumulation (of merit and wisdom).
Thus, in accordance with the teaching of Kashmiri Mahapandita Shakyashri
and others, this was written by Kamalarajadvipa for the daily practice
of his own pupils and disciples.
Lots of love,
me (mike)
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